This is a verbatim transcript from a program on SLMA Radio. You may use quotes but please you’re your editorial discretion. - Thanks Jim Obermayer
This is a verbatium transcript.
Paul: Welcome once again to another episode of SLMA radio brought you on behalf of our 9000+ members of the Sales Lead Management Association. If it has to do with sales lead management or sales lead marketing it probably starts here with the SLMA Radio Hour.
Our host today as always, the Executive Director and founder of the SLMA Jim Obermayer with yours truly Paul Roberts sitting in as producer and engineer today from our studios here in sunny Southern California.
SLMA Radio is a syndicated show and our archives have over 318 episodes now with an audience reach of over 79,000 people.
SLMA Radio is part of the SLMA Live Radio Network which currently produces eight programs for at work listeners and as always we remind you that our program is not scripted, it’s a spontaneous exchange of ideas starting with this one.
Jim: Thank you. Our in studio producer is Paul Roberts.
On today’s program we have as our guest Paul Petersen. Paul is the GM/VP at GoldMine and he’s been on our program several times in the past, he is one of our most listened to guests that we’ve had on the program and we’re going to tackle Marketing Myths and ROI today. But before we get started there I want to remind people next week we have author Rick Cheatham, he’s going to be on, we’re going to be talking about his book – Selling Vision, that’s on May 5.
At 11 AM today we have Nate Teplow and Joe Tavano from MSPRadio with the subject How to Choose the Right BDR Solution for Your Business and at 11:30 we’ve got Matt Heinz with Sales Pipeline Radio and he’s going to be talking about The Myth of Multitasking: How Doing It All Gets Nothing Done with Dave Crenshaw.
Let’s get into our program today with Paul. Paul wanted to tackle the subject today – Marketing Myths and ROI. Now marketing is often presented with a dizzying array of metrics many of which are useless. In this program today Paul is going to talk about how some of the most common metrics may not be what you think and in fact may be marketing myths.
Now Paul is the general manager and vice president of GoldMine’s business unit of HEAT Software Inc. His career spans working with sales and marketing systems and processes having developed, managed and sold companies including McDonald’s Corporation, General Electric, Symantec, Allied Van lines and he’s got 16 years with CRM background. Welcome Paul!
Paul. P: Thanks Jim, good to be back!
Jim: It’s good to be back. Your programs continue to be listened to and do well on replays and we’re happy to have you naturally.
Paul. P: Well you give me a lot of credit. I think the titles that you pick are the subjects that people are interested in and if I would take credit for anything is that they are not hanging up after five minutes so it’s fun to be part of that.
Jim: Now GoldMine, you are headquartered in Milpitas and it’s a division of Front Range Solutions, right?
Paul. P: He is actually the name changed recently to HEAT Software but yeah, Melpitas based and GoldMine has been around for 25 years, sort of the pioneers that were in the CRM contact management space.
Jim: Yeah, you’ve got over a million users out there and manage over a billion relationships.
Paul. P: Yeah, and when we look at the number of users and the people that they… the average size of the database, it’s amazing how many people our customers are talking to everyday about the repeat business and should we do business and so forth so that’s why we came up with that number.
Jim: Let’s get into these marketing myths. I know this a favorite subject of yours especially as it pertains to return on investment. What do you mean by this?
Paul. P: First off, I had an uh oh moment and not an aha moment, an uh oh moment. I was sitting with… and so in my job I manage both marketing and sales and I am probably a stronger sales manager than a marketing manager. But we are going through some site optimization and I had two marketing professionals on the line with me and by the way, don’t disparage them, this is what happened.
So from a context of looking at leads and managing an SMB or any size business but I focus mostly on those smaller midsized, we were going through some stats and one of the gentlemen said well, your average page view was only a minute and 30 seconds. I said “only?” He says yeah, that’s pretty bad. And the guy said well whoa, whoa, whoa that’s actually pretty good! I went uh oh, because I had two experts, people I respected with vastly different impressions.
So as we drill down and go what do we do, what do we mean I kind of found out that we really didn’t know, right? Because there are a lot of things that could drive a page view – is there a lot of stuff on it or not? Maybe they went to another better page after that one, right? So a stat like that started to go, I better start to look at some of the other stats that I am using, the measure of success of marketing when I had a sales group that was saying he lead flow is down a little bit, right? So I started digging into how do I evaluate my marketing efforts based on, and this is primarily to do with Internet and web marketing so today, right that’s really it, you are not, for the most part, unless your consumer base; you’re not doing direct mail and you’re not faxing and even cold calling is a tough row.
So that’s why I started thinking about some of those stats that I have quoted as hey, look at this boss, this is a success and when I started to look at it I realized, hmm, that number doesn’t always mean what you would like it to mean.
Jim: Give me an example.
Paul. P: Site traffic. So we all have websites today, site traffic and most marketing professionals will say well before you can get leads you have to increase site traffic. And so 1) – site traffic was one big myth because then you get down into well how many unique visitors and how many repeat visitors, what’s that ratio? And over time and what I found is there were many things I could do from a marketing perspective that would increase site traffic but nothing came out the back end.
So for example, in one month we paid for an industry speaker, we drove site traffic through the roof. In our case I think it was an increase of about 50% for that particular month, it drove site traffic through the roof and so that was touted and the expense, well visitor per… all of these things were being touted to me by the marketing team as –that’s fantastic!
But then when we got down to what squeezed out of the pipeline it was less than a couple of dozen clickthroughs or conversions and I went – so spending a lot of money to get site traffic up in and of itself is not good unless you have a plan to convert them and or measure and track afterwards. But the marketing people had stopped after – hey we had 50% increase in site traffic, that’s fantastic.
Jim: Well I’ve seen this happen before, it’s the old rising tide lifts all boats, you assume that there would be the same number of basic inquirers in the new group as the old group; so site traffic increased 50% you would expect sales inquiries in some way shape or form to also increase 50% in qualified leads. But I guess if you are not ready to convert that and make offers in some way shape or form it fails and I have seen this before.
Paul. P: Yeah and one of the other myths, in some technology and many of your sponsors are technology-based but this could be… one of the marketing tenets today is thought leadership and content. But that’s another way to attract people to you to increase site traffic for example but what’s your plan to convert them to your product interest? And or does your product audience expect thought leadership from you?
So for example Goldmine, we are kind of… we are the basics, we are simple, we are affordable. I don’t know that they expect strategic thinking from us, right? But we can get a lot of downloads of white papers but then when I said well okay so we’ve got these white papers, are those leads? Well they are people that downloaded the white paper but that’s not really a lead because they haven’t really expressed an interest in my product yet so what’s our plan to migrate them, nurture them, put something up?
But then as you said Jim you say hey, if we got into the site, we are hoping they saw something there that magically converts them but I think you have to think it through a little bit more and say if you are going to publish a white paper you’re going to get a lot of people who are interested in that subject who may or may not be able to buy your product but they are certainly interested in what three best practices or what the latest white paper says, make sense?
Jim: Yes it does. One of my old bosses once said to me – Jim, hope is not a strategy [10:09 crosstalk].
Paul. P: Yeah, right.
Jim: Adtrack Corporation, hope is not a strategy which made me mad as hell at the time but as soon as I calmed down I said, “He’s right. I am dealing on hope and it’s not a good strategy.”
Paul. P: So certainly that’s a good start, right? Those are good objectives but I think you have to be targeted or you have to accept the fact that in that group of people who download your white paper or who come to your site as a result of some advertisement or you get some industry speaker. If you get an industry speaker, yeah, you are going to get attraction but that’s the downside. You are going to get attraction from people outside your reach. That’s a great because now they are exposed to your brand but now you have to have a, and you said it, a compelling offer, a micro landing page. So when you run that campaign you get so caught up in the execution of that one aspect of it that you don’t think about what happens on the backend; what am I going to present to these people?
For example I’ve always suggested that if we put a white paper up for Goldmine I’ve always said why don’t we have a section of the back that says – “Would you like to learn how Goldmine supports the principles in here?” And it will subtly shift them to my particular product based on some best practices.
Often people opt outs too is helpful and something marketing doesn’t always like to do. So for example I’ve always is espoused, and by the way I’ve had a hard time getting it adopted but say, hey, if all you want is my newsletters, best practices and can’t buy CRM, check this box and we will add you to our subscriber list, right? So now you hopefully you can send them out things, maybe they will refer, pass along which is something I like everybody forward, share – qualify them out earlier.
And I always found that as a sales rep to be a good thing. As soon as you qualify somebody up front the less time you spend. So if there was something my product didn’t do I would try to go for that, go for the no I think they call it in sales, right? I would go for that right away because if I found out that was important to them and I couldn’t get them off it, then there was no point going through demos and meetings and proposals, right? It’s like I’m sorry, I can’t help you if that’s going to be…
The folks that’s been selling, Rachem would say try to shift that from an important feature to – well yeah that’s not as important as we thought. Now you can continue, right? But so in marketing the same thing; it’s good to have people qualify themselves out.
So one of the other myths is that that’s going a form on everything, let’s gate everything and then you get into discussions of how much information you should collect. But we opened up our website and we saw leads go down so that was very scary but the leads that were going through were now real people willing to talk to us as opposed to getting all of the forms from Mickey Mouse and no return calls, right? So we took a very risky gamble to say I am going to reduce the number because I’m going to open up more and more of my content. But what put “Contact us” or “request quote” or “schedule personal demo” or whatever that might be, try to put more action buttons where they can opt in.
Jim: That’s a great idea. In any group of leads I found about 25% of the people are students, prisoners and competitors. The other 20 another 20 or 25% are people that have some interest but not an immediate interest. It’s usually 45% of them tend to buy something. So the people that opt out are usually the 55% that have no interest in any way the salespeople complain about.
Paul. P: Let them tell you that and you are not chasing them. Chasing a lead can be very expensive for especially if you have an inside sales or outside sales and it can be very distracting if you work through a channel because now they are feeling failure so it’s better to send fewer out but that are more closely aligned with your product mix and qualified than sending out a whole bunch of stuff in the hopes that good stuff will happen.
The other myth in those statistics is the unique visitor and the repeat visitor, right? Because all too often unique is equated with new but when… and web people out there are shaking their heads and going boy, sometimes these questions Jim reveal how little I know and so I go off to seek it. But I said well, what I found was that other people hadn’t dug, unique doesn’t necessarily mean new prospect.
It could be a new contact that the customer had. Now these are all important, right? Customer marketing, royalty, repeat sales, these are all important things but sometimes they are on different tracks and if you are trying to win new business, if that’s a new metric for growth, you need to know how many new companies, prospects, targets are coming through. And if you get new contacts from at a customer, that’s good too and your CRM should be able to link them by company or domain, email address or something like that but you’ve got to drill down and all too often I’ve been quoted – well, hey we’ve got 75% new visitors, okay how many of those are new customers and they couldn’t do it.
Jim: Couldn’t do it.
Paul. P: Couldn’t do it, right? So that has you guessing a bit and that was another myth that you can’t call that new until somebody has qualified it, we tried various formats of having customers just check a box – “I would love to have content.” “Hey if you check this box you will never fill in another form” or “you get a free newsletter” then content can help and you kind of move your customers to a different track but we’ve had a real hard time and many customers won’t tell you they are a customer for whatever reason; they don’t want to check the box or they don’t know what customer means. We had that question too but finding out who is that new prospect has been a Holy Grail search for us.
Jim: We have been speaking with Paul Petersen the vice president and GMO of GoldMine. We have been tackling Marketing Myths and ROI. When we come back after a word from our sponsors were going to ask Paul – what are the three things that have made you a success? – Over to you.
Paul: All right back to Jim for our last five minutes here.
Jim: We have been speaking with Paul Petersen, GMO and vice president of GoldMine software. Paul has agreed that he’s going to give us some hints today. What are the three things Paul that have made you a success?
Paul. P: Well, thanks for the question and if I may Jim take the liberty of as we wrap up the ROI discussion, I had a couple of quick things to wrap that up. Say when you’re looking at all these numbers make sure you and your team the hard questions about what do they mean to come to a common agreement. Try to compare your stats to other people in your industry to things that happened. Hey, did we change the website or whatever? So you have an understanding of what is driving those numbers and then ask your team for recommendation. Does this mean we should change? Are we doing something right or wrong? And then the last one is a marketing ROI and I’ve always espoused.
Measure sales force accepts and adds to the pipeline through their forecast, that’s the best measurement of what marketing is doing that’s right and then shot that back to the campaigns. That helps in sorting through all these myriad of numbers.
Jim: I think we’ve got seven listed here today and they are certainly really good. This follows on one of your previous shows which was – Follow the Money but that’s what marketing’s role is and it is one of the most listened to programs on SLMA Radio. Let’s discuss now we’ve been speaking with Paul Petersen VP and general manager of GoldMine and Paul has agreed to let us know; what are the three things that have made him a success.
Paul. P: Yes and it was a great question and I am a little bit older so I am looking back and did everything work out? And the first thing I had to ask is am I a success? And I look back at what I had set for myself as goals and so forth in college and high school and I said yes I am. And I think that’s the first thing you have to do so I’m going to have a little bit more than three but you have to have an idea of what success means for you, right? Is it being the best in the field, making the most money? Be social, whatever it was. For me it was interesting work and life balance.
And then the three things that I think as I look back and of course I don’t know that I knew these three when I started out but when I look back there were some common threads and they were this – have some ambition. I was always looking for interesting work, how to make a little bit more money, how to provide a good life, do what I want to do, have some fun but then I didn’t always take a promotion that was offered, I ignored a few for various reasons but I always wanted to try to do better at my job and take the next rung on the ladder wherever that might have taken me so have some ambition – that was number one.
The second one that I found for me personally was a bias for action and I am a big list driven person. A product at GoldMine has lists whether it was long-term, every New Year’s Day my wife and I sit down and we plot out what we want to do, savings, funds for the kids whatever, whatever it was and it worked. I always had lists of things I needed to get done so I can prioritize and putting those things down helps you achieve that goal. So whether it’s save X by next year or get that new car or just getting these proposals out, I am list driven. If you go to my desk, my kitchen table where I sit in the morning I’ve got lists that talk about that and then I’d like to get things done.
Now that doesn’t say I procrastinate or take my time but I try to get things done and with my team as a manager I try to lead from the front. I won’t ask my team to have anything done that I haven’t tried or done myself or willing to do so I can’t do everything but I try to walk in their shoes.
And the last or the third one was collaborate – as a young kid I was very cynical and critical and I had a boss who, thank God, recognized that Paul you are very analytical but you need to shape the way you present your data. And when I made that shift I found my life was much more enjoyable and my colleagues opened up and I was able to work across cross-disciplines, multiple departments within the company and so collaborating with others and sharing their success.
And one of the rules was “making your boss look good” and “work to play well with others” – I always thought were great little sentiments. And then the last one I will mention was positive energy. It’s sort of in that collaborate where doing things with it positive more life-affirming. I like things like the Boy Scouts say “always leave a place better than the condition you found it,” I like the Golden rule – “do onto others as you would do yourself,” “don’t put in email something you wouldn’t say to somebody’s face” – little rules like that.
But try to keep us active, recognize that people are… I am always reminding my team, why are you giving somebody who is trying to help you a hard time? You will get more if you do that. So have some ambition by setting goals, have a bias for action and in sales that was important to focus on what was revenue and I like to get things done; small, big, whatever it is, get things done and then the collaboration; you need people to get behind you.
But you also need them to help you make your ideas better and again I think a good successful person will recognize when that is happening and then you know that I’m going to have four people working with me to make this a success instead of my trying to ram rod it. And as I said, try to have a positive outlook and dealings with others; helps you so much especially in the corporate world how to get things done.
Jim: You have been very helpful. I love your lists. We have been speaking with Paul Petersen VP and general manager of GoldMine and from what I’ve known about you since I’ve met you a few years ago I think you are making good on your list and how you treat people, how you treat the SLMA and you’ve been great today at giving us a nice list, I think it is seven items on the marketing myths and how to overcome those and maybe not take them so seriously and then your list of successful items that really made your success. You have been very helpful. How does someone get a hold of you Paul?
Paul. P: Well I am Paul.firstname.lastname@example.org.
Jim: Well thank you very much and I think this program, just like you others is going to have one of our highest audiences. I appreciate it very much, have a great day.
Paul. P: Thanks for inviting me of course. I enjoy the thoughtful questions.
Jim: Thank you.
Paul: Once again you’ve been listening to another episode of SLMA Radio brought you on behalf of our 9000+ members of the Sales Lead Management Association. If it has to do with sales lead management or sales lead marketing it probably starts here with the SLMA Radio Hour.